RI Political Developments - Dan McGowan (Boston Globe) Joins Bartholomew

Is Rhode Island’s "boring" election cycle finally heating up? Dan McGowan (The Boston Globe) joins Bill Bartholomew to break down a week of major shifts in the Ocean State. They discuss why the Providence mayoral race is seeing a policy divide unlike any in recent history, the "new kid on the block" energy of Ken Block’s independent run for Governor, and the political "horse-trading" surrounding a potential Supreme Court vacancy.

Key Discussion Points

• The Providence Mayoral Divide: Why the battle over rent stabilization between Mayor Brett Smiley and Rep. David Morales represents a rare, policy-driven shift in city politics that could define the next council.
• The "38 Studios on Steroids" Effect: Dan explains why the Washington Bridge crisis has surpassed previous state scandals in its "stickiness" with voters and how it provides a massive opening for "fixer" candidates.
• The 2026 Gubernatorial Chess Board: An analysis of Ken Block’s recent polling, his "new shiny" treatment in the media, and why Dan McKee and Helena Foulkes might be headed for an "opioids vs. competence" primary battle.
• Supreme Court Vacancy & Horse-Trading: A candid look at the possibility of Speaker Joe Shekarchi moving to the high court and the reality of how political judgeships are awarded in Rhode Island.
• AI and Data Centers: Bill reflects on a recent sold-out event in Newport, proving that "non-traditional" political issues are starting to break through with the average voter.

About Our Guest

Dan McGowan is the Rhode Island columnist for The Boston Globe and author of the Rhode Map newsletter. You can subscribe to his daily coverage by emailing rinews@globe.com.

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Transcript

Bill Bartholomew 0:01

Dan McGowan, the Boston Globe, we've got some politics to talk about.

Dan McGowan 0:04

Oh, I feel like we do this every couple of months and it's the best. It really is.

Bill Bartholomew 0:08

So and now it's fun because it's actually political season and things are starting to get interesting. And people actually might be paying a little bit of attention. Trevor Burrus, Jr. Yeah. Which is such a huge difference. And it maybe we should start right there where we have these discussions in the political class, if you will, which is such a dangerous term, and that it's it's such an awful term. But amongst the people who pay attention for a job or for extreme interest, these are always discussions that are happening. Do you really think that right now is the moment where the average person is starting to at least get some sense it's an election year and figure out who these people are?

Dan McGowan 0:41

Yeah, I mean, I th I still think we might be a little ways off before like people really know. I mean, you're starting to see, you know, some of the political things that happen. So like mailers hitting mailboxes, Brett Smiley, we're gonna talk about the mayor's race, you know, has uh been pretty active doing that, um, less so in the governor's race, right? Uh, but although I would expect relatively quickly to at least see Helena Folk's kind of on the air. So that'll be a real sign. You know, usually it's the campaign commercials that are the first real sign of boy, this is starting to get real. But I totally agree with you. I mean, I feel like it's, you know, you've been uh saying for God for months, maybe even a year now, how much kind of this governor's race in particular is a little is boring, nobody knows what's kind of happening. Uh, I think that's been totally right. And yeah, it's just been one of those things that we've been talking about, uh, you know, certainly in the journalistic community, we've been talking about uh the 26 governor's race since the day the 22 governor's race ended, and now it's finally like, wow, people might be paying a little bit of attention. Right.

Bill Bartholomew 1:47

And even before that, because you think about when before it was expected that Raimundo was going to leave for DC, 2022-2026, you know, was viewed in in a different lane, so to speak, in terms of who the breakout candidate would be in a lot of people's minds, anyway.

Dan McGowan 2:01

Yeah, I think that's totally right. And I think you know what's so funny is one of my favorite things in sports journalism is the day after the uh the national championship in football or the NCAA basketball championship, the day after is always the way too early rankings for next season. Right. I love reading those because it's completely crazy that that they do it, but it's so much fun. And we are sort of in a perpetual state of that, right? You know, it's always who might be next, who might be maneuvering. And sometimes it's it's not that it's made up, but it's a little, it's very inside baseball. I mean, I wrote something this week about the Cranston marriage race in 2028. Right. So it I, you know, it is what it is, but um it's it's nice when when you know it it actually starts to become a little bit more meaningful.

Bill Bartholomew 2:46

Yeah, and I think people are picking up on issues, issue by issue interest in in a way that maybe I haven't personally seen in previous election cycles where it's not directly related to the election. For example, AI and data centers. I did an event in Newport with Newport Film a couple of weeks ago at at the Jane Pickens Theater. It was sold out. They showed a documentary about AI, and then I moderated a panel with a bunch of basically computer science and data experts from from the state. And what was most impactful though was the amount of people that stayed and asked questions and stayed well after the QA ended to ask additional questions. And you're like, okay, people are paying attention, and this is absolutely politics. It's just maybe not the Washington Bridge or opioids.

Dan McGowan 3:26

So well, that's right. And that it's the kind of thing that uh, you know, real people are thinking about and care about because they're worried about their jobs or they're worried about how to use it the right way when it comes to AI, things like that. Funny enough, unfortunately, you know, in a governor's race, uh, you know, I can't imagine that Helena folks or Dem McKee are gonna lead with AI.

Speaker 1 3:47

Right.

Dan McGowan 3:47

Uh even though to his credit, the governor has that task force and uh, you know, I think Helena folks will probably I think you can't I, you know, I think the debate questions will include something about AI, but it'll be more kind of an obligatory we have to ask than having like really you know concentrated plans.

Bill Bartholomew 4:04

Right, right, right, right. Well well, let's get into some specifics here because there's really two major political stories right now that are they're tied to the two races that I think are front and center the Providence mayoral race and the Democrat primary, and then now with Ken Block, a general election that is interesting as well. We also have this backburner kind of tied to the governor's race, backburner story of Speaker Shikarchy potentially becoming a Supreme Court justice. So there's a lot of things happening behind the scenes, but right in front of the public right now, let's talk about the Providence mayoral race, centered in large part publicly on the issue of rent stabilization. You've been you're you're someone who wrote quite favorably about Mayor Smiley when he came in in 2022 in your columns. You've also been, and I think it would be universally agreed, you kind of introduced the David Morales political world to the greater audience through a column that you wrote about him at the wrestling column.

Speaker 1 5:00

Yeah, yeah.

Bill Bartholomew 5:01

And so you've been covering both of these people as as humans, as political creatures. So when you look at this race, even though rent stabilization is the central issue in a lot of people's minds right now, is that the central issue to this race? And how do you see this playing out with the the dividing line that's really been cast here on the rent stabilization issue?

Dan McGowan 5:22

Well, stepping back, I I love the way you set that up when it comes to you know an issue or issues that are that are maybe gonna define political races. I try to rack my brain about this, at least in the time that I've covered Providence politics, and go back to 2010, right? So I've covered a couple of mayors' races, pretty competitive ones. I can't think of a time where uh where any sort of policy truly defined the the race, right? You you just quickly you go back to 2010, open mayoral seat when David Cicellini was running for Congress. There wasn't a a lot of talk, even you know, we end up having a financial crisis, but we don't find out about that financial crisis until Angel Tavares takes office, right? Right. So there wasn't like a big conversation about how here's my plan for the pension system, or here's my plan to shore up the city's finances. It was, you know, kind of a a lot of cookie cutter and a lot of retail politics. You go to 14, you know, now it's it's a buddy CNC race, so everything is personality, it's corruption versus you know, new versus old. There wasn't a ton of great grand ideas, and certainly no execution of those ideas after. Mare Lorza wins re-election in 18, largely against opponents that weren't very serious, and and so he kind of wins just fine. 22, you know, Brett Smiley, Gonzalo Cuervo, and Nierville of Fortune, that race was, you know, was really kind of a well-executed victory by Mayor Smiley in the way that he spent years and years building up kind of chips everywhere he could, uh, knew where, what kind of voter, you know, he wanted to support him, knew he could, you know, do very well on the east side, that kind of thing. And so it wasn't like you could say Mayor Smiley ran as, you know, the the back to basics candidate. That's fine, but it wasn't as though he had a grand plan to do anything. Right. Finally, you kick forward to right now, yeah. This is the first time in my cr in my career, and maybe really going back many, many years before that, um, where I think m uh uh uh rent stabilization or rent control is going to be, you know, the conversation that that's kind of the first question at every debate and forum. I think there's just very clearly, you know, two uh distinct sides of this when it comes to Mayor Smiley being against it. He is, of course, vetoed the the uh ordinance that was passed by the city council. David Morales is running basically this entire campaign on this idea that this is what we need. He believes this is the issue. And so I think it's it's healthy because it's a good conversation to have. Um and and yeah, it's unlike anything we've covered before. It means that you, as reporter uh reporters and as as I think as voters, people have to um, you know, dig in a little more and understand it and understand, you know, both the criticism of it, which which you know, Mayor Smiley's criticism of it isn't unfair. It's just it, you know, it it it's clearly point of view, you know, he feels very strongly that it's a bad idea. Uh, you know, Rep Morales doesn't quite concede anything could possibly be wrong with it. Uh understandable because he he feels that way, but um I I it's a worthy conversation to be having because yeah, the back trap is that that people are being priced out of the city constantly.

Bill Bartholomew 10:55

Right. And that is real, there's no doubt. And there's no doubt that the legislation that was put forth, or the the package that was put forth really in the versions, the revisions, the carve-outs, and all that, it's it's real. It's not a it's not a it's not a guaranteed death on arrival piece of legislation, except for in this environment, which it is, and it was kind of always clear that as constituted, there was no way the mayor was going to sign it, and it was very difficult to imagine a veto-proof a majority scenario happening. So my question is looking at this, it almost seems like too perfect of a political divide for an election season, and I start to wonder maybe that was the point all along.

Dan McGowan 11:33

Yeah, I mean, I think that is a fair question. You know, there was a party, the political animal in me thought maybe the smartest thing for Mayor Smiley to do would have been to like let it let it become law without his signature. And then his budget doesn't fund it. His uh, you know, he could there's a whole bunch of of uh pieces uh provisions in that policy that I think were probably uh not as dramatic or drastic as as opponents would have said. And so there was there there could have been an interesting move there to kind of let it become law and and you know, really not entirely enforce it, and then you sort of you know, first of all, you'd you'd have a re-election where you you it'll be too soon to argue whether it's being enforced, so you've mitigated that to some degree, and you know, then you figure it out going forward. That would have been an interesting political maneuver, purely political. To Mayor Smiley's credit, he feels pretty principled in this stance. He's actually against this idea, and that's why he uh he vetoed it. You know, I I do think it starts to become um you said too perfect. I think that's that's a good way to put it. You know, uh the city council clearly, city council leadership, uh in many of the supporters, I mean, I this is certainly true, knew that it was likely to be vetoed and knew that they likely didn't have the votes to override. They view this as, you know, a good thing politically because you can one, it gives you a clear stance in the mayor's race. City council leadership does not like Mayor Smiley. They would love to see David Morales be elected. But even beyond that, you're trying to win a couple of seats on the city council. Now you've got an issue. Now you've got people out there who feel this is a really important issue who maybe are gonna knock a few more doors, maybe they're gonna donate a little more. So it sets up as a political victory, even when you don't actually get the ordinance into place. And there's a real scenario where, you know, two a couple of different things could happen. One, it's possible that David Morales could become the mayor, number one. Number two, if David Morales doesn't become the mayor, if the city council elects one or two more people out of the leadership dies, you now have a a a you know veto-proof majority.

Bill Bartholomew 13:48

Right. And maybe there's some lane as well. He hasn't admitted it as much, at least that I've heard, but there's some lane that this appeals to the Smiley. I there there's a way I think that this could appeal to the Smiley administration and supporters, but it's going to require so much work that it can't be done in a couple of weeks in the spring. This is one of those pieces of of legislation that is gonna be a real dance to figure out, and you might have to start carving out by address. Yes.

Dan McGowan 14:16

Yeah, I I think that's exactly right. And I think that's where, you know, it's easy to pick apart the the, you know, why this was rushed, this kind of thing. You know, on one hand, that is true. On the other, the city council has been tipping their hand at this for a very long time. They've, you know, Rachel Miller, the council president, has wanted to do this ever since she took office. Um Mayor Smiley showed very little, if any, openness to actually having a negotiation about it. And so, you know, he kind of set his political brand as I'm against this, I don't think it works. Um, he has credible thoughts behind that, right? He points to a St. Paul, Minnesota or other places where he doesn't think it has worked. Um, and so, you know, there wasn't real, this wasn't like other issues where there where everybody sees some level of political benefit to cut some type of compromise. It's not like pension reform, it's not like even you know some of the public safety stuff that that happened uh in the you know late 20 teens or pedestrian bridge and the bike lane and all that business. Anything like that, right? There's no this one, you know, Mayor Spiley actually, I think, reads it as a political advantage to him to oppose it. And of course, the city council reads it as a political advantage to support it.

Bill Bartholomew 15:29

Yeah, no doubt. Of course, there is an alternative, and people can certainly find maybe the compromise candidate, our favorite, Alan Waters, is in the mix.

Dan McGowan 15:36

So Alan Waters is running yet again, and and he'll get some small percentage of the vote.

Bill Bartholomew 15:42

Yep, and that's uh that may be some people's solution right there. All right, so turning to the governor's race, look, it's a push poll that came out this week, and there's no doubt that I I I made I I I say there's two things that we learned from that poll. Number one, Ken Block's the legitimate candidate. Two, people want change. Beyond that, okay, whatever. But what do we take away right now from the governor's race just in terms of the energy around it with the block entrance? And we're seeing the governor today is in Washington on a at a campaign-related event, for example. We're seeing I'm getting a little bit more text messaging, I'm sure you are, times 10 from people asking about setting things up and when's this, that, or the other. The debates are coming together. So it feels like the energy's there. What do you sense is the most important thing people should know right now about this race?

Dan McGowan 16:27

Well, I guess who's running? So it helps in that, right? You've got the Democratic primary side, Dan McKee and Helena Folks. Right. Uh that seems pretty settled. I don't think you're gonna get any other, you know, at least not, you know, people who can do anything other than get a couple of percentage points in the vote. Uh, you know, the Republican side, you have Bob Raimundo, Elaine Polino, uh, Aaron Gukian. Aaron Gukian appears by all accounts to be the favorite there. Uh, but I think what what Ken Block's entrance into their race does is one, in his poll, uh for as much as people may nitpick over certain parts of the poll, very clearly, uh Ken Block, I think, starts the race in second place, right? He's ahead of the Republican, uh, whoever the Republican nominee is going to be. I think uh that means uh for the first time in his political career, Ken Block means something. He's relevant. Uh he just hasn't been that person before. 2010 was was a spoiler candidate trying to get his party on the ballot. 2014 kind of ran this a little bit of a more angry campaign in the Republican primary against Alan Fung, kind of lost his way, I would argue, um, where it was more about stopping Alan Fung than it was about actually presenting a vision for the state. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Bill Bartholomew 17:40

It was similar to Joe Trillo's campaign, which was number one, we were against Alan Fung. Number two, okay, let's find some sort of coalition.

Dan McGowan 17:46

Yeah, maybe we'll win. Um and now I think it is, I think it's more real. Um I'm I'm not sure how much that's Ken Block or how much that's a weak Republican Party, a weak uh or a a very uh you know a governor with a very high uh disapproval rating, things like that. But it doesn't really matter. Ken Block is absolutely a factor in this race. You know, can he win? I I don't know. I I think you know, you you start to to take a look at whoever comes out of the Democratic primary. Look, if if if Dan McKee is victorious in the Democratic primary, one, it's gonna be a remarkable political comeback for him, right? He is in a very bad space right now. And so you've got to assume you can't win with wherever he is in the polls, 20s or low 30s. He would not win if that is the case.

Bill Bartholomew 18:33

No, there's no scenario where he has anywhere near enough of a coalition or numbers. It's just a numbers, it's not even close.

Dan McGowan 18:39

That being said, if he does win the primary, you have to assume something has changed. Voters have changed their minds, they didn't like Helena Folks. Something happened between where we sit today and September 8th, right? And so that's where you know he would come out of a Democratic primary with a lot of momentum if he were to win. If Helena Folks wins the primary, that's where I kind of write off Ken Block. I think if Helena Folkes wins the primary, voters have gonna have gonna signal they want change. She represents we're we trust her as the change candidate. I think it becomes incredibly difficult to be uh essentially a newcomer on the Democratic side. But I I, you know, this is where I'm I'm hesitant to say, you know, Ken Block is in a I think his pollster said he has a runway, and and you know, that's of course what a k what a pollster is gonna do. But I think he's in a good place. Um I I could still see a scenario where he's sort of a distant second uh in the end, you know, when voters actually have their say. But again, he is more meaningful, he's more interesting, he makes the general election a lot more interesting to guys like us.

Speaker 1 19:47

Yep.

Dan McGowan 19:48

Um, and and you know, he's gonna force certainly whoever comes out of that Democratic primary to spend a lot of money and to take it very seriously.

Bill Bartholomew 19:55

Yeah, and and also there's there's a value to for the voter benefits so much from a Ken Block because it's not a garbage candidate, it's not somebody who gets in there and has either one issue or a grievance or something like that, a debate with Ken Block or a Ken Block response to something that one of the Democrat candidates put out, or even even if it's Aaron Aaron Gakin on the Republican side, there's a value to that debate. And for the most part, I think the Ken Block brand probably should be focusing on authenticity. I worry that maybe leading with some of the characterization of the we're the front runner is an initial, okay. Yeah, that grabs a headline, and there are some people who will bite and run with that fully. Um I wonder if it's better to just say, hey, authentically, people are in to change right now. People like what we're what we're saying here and what we're doing here. Let's grow this thing, let's find the right the right network of people on the left, people on the right, that are not ideologues. That's from an authenticity standpoint.

Dan McGowan 21:00

Yeah, I didn't love the headline or the subject line of his you know poll results saying we're in the lead. That wasn't true, right? It was after testing and after I say Bill Bartholomew is the most wonderful human on earth, Dan McGowan is horrible. How do you feel? And then Bill Bartholomew kills me. You probably beat me anyway, but um about that. But you know, I I I do think I think you've hit it on the head. The difference now, too, is that because of the Washington Bridge, I think Ken Block can capitalize on the thing that, you know, Rhode Islanders are always deeply cynical, but now you have something very tangible that you can talk about, and it allows you to, and and this is the thing that Helena Folk is, of course, going to do in a Democratic primary too, but what it allows you to do is, you know, all the nitpicky stuff that Ken Block is always all over. Yeah, now everything can go back to just like the Washington Bridge, the uh, you know, the um uh DOA, Department of Administration kind of snafus, things like the tax forms, things like that. Oh, just like the Washington Bridge. You can just keep reinforcing it, and everybody understands. And I always use this anecdote. I I was at the Columbus Day Festival last year on Federal Hill, and uh, and you know, I was in line getting sausage and peppers, and the people in front of me were all laughing and joking about how much they hate the Washington Bridge. I mean, that thing has broken through as uh 38 Studios on steroids, right? It's it's more like in in many ways the the you know the financial crisis in the in in uh 1990, right? It's like the banks closing in terms of the the stickiness to it.

Speaker 1 22:34

Oh my god, yeah, absolutely.

Dan McGowan 22:36

And so, you know, if you're Ken blocked, you're in a perfect spot. I'm a fixer. Uh and so you you you know, you just keep reinforcing. I'm a fixer. Nobody understands what a software technologist does. I have no, I couldn't tell you the first thing about him rooting out waste and fraud in Texas. But you know what? He has reinforced that so many times. And then I look at the other people around him that haven't done that kind of work, it actually sells in this moment, more so than it did before. You know, he's running in 2010 trying to replace a Republican governor, so he's wishy-washy about uh, you know, about going really hard after the the the Republican governor. 2014, again, it got kind of lost with Alan Fung. It was just sort of a let's fight Alan Fung kind of thing. Now you've got a moment where people are cynical, they have a right to be cynical and a reason to be cynical, and there's a symbol for it all. That's why there's an opening for him.

Bill Bartholomew 23:24

Yeah. I think at some point, obviously at some point, debates or otherwise, he's gonna have to start to answer questions about social issues and things like that. I heard him on with Tara Granaghan on WPRO, and she he was asked about you know, uh remarks he made about guns, and she asked a question that was not quite straightforward where he was able to get out of the because she asked, like, Oh, do you have do you are you opposed to confiscation of what do they call them AR-16s? Yes, right. So he had a kind of a landing spot where you could say, uh, you know, I'm not talking about that, but a direct question about that, hey, are you in favor of this legislation? I think he would I I think it's I don't think it's controversial to say I am not in favor of that. Only a handful of people would probably agree with the notion that, yeah, we should probably go and take away that grandfather clause. That's the exact thing we should do right now. But on other things, people are gonna look at Ken Block, and it was interesting that some of the responses I got from some people that I know to be f smart, thoughtful people. People, but definitely left on everything that they that they post or talk about. And their concerns were like, well, this guy's, you know, is just a he's a Republican. Um, and because he can't win, Republicans can't win in Rhode Island, so he's just running as an independent. I think in order to distance himself from that, he's gonna have to go out and talk about some of the things he talked he's posted anti-gun commentary on on Facebook. I've read it, I think I've screenshotted it, and then and um he's gonna have to do that because otherwise people are gonna start to say, I'm I was trying to think of it the other day, what was the Patricia Morgan when she ran for the coalition that was like Arlene Violet and Ken Block around Patricia Morgan? Right. That's gonna come back to bite him. He should get ahead of that if he wants to win.

Dan McGowan 25:04

Yeah, I think he he does have he he has a spot right now because he's the new kid on the block in the in the context of this race, right? So we're kind of giving him, I hate to say giving him a pass because I don't think that's it's exactly true, but he's kind of getting the new shiny treatment, got a poll he put out. He's you know, he's quick, he's very engaging, he's a very likable guy. I think all of us in the media have talked to him either on or off the record for many, many years. So we all feel pretty comfortable with him. And so right now he kind of gets away a little bit with that sort of, I'm not gonna be answering those questions, and that's my brand. Like, I I don't care about those issues. You know, I I sat down with him this week and and you know, was asking a little bit about sort of what kind of Republican candidate could you see yourself supporting? John Laughlin, for example. And he was sort of wishy-washy about whether he, you know, where he stood on that, though he he was complimentary of John. Um, you know, have you ever voted for Donald Trump? Crystal clear. Like, have you ever done that? I know you took on Donald Trump in trying to you know disprove his uh voter fraud claims, but have you ever voted for him? Why did you vote for him? Those kind of things. And and he, you know, he very much says, I'm not gonna be talking about that. Uh, you know, I learned my lesson in 2010. There was a whole thing about him in uh vote, he voted for Barack Obama, I believe. And so he had to deal with that from the from the conservative side. Oh, outrageous. You voted for Barack Obama. Yeah. Um, I think he he thinks that he's maybe being a little more clever than he is. You're right, he is going to have to answer that question. And a good moderator like yourself in a debate or uh, you know, channel 12, those guys, they're not gonna let you off the hook with, I don't want to talk about that. They'll just leave, you know, pause and make you answer the question until until you're you know awkward and it'll be a standoff, right? Yeah, uh, he's gonna have to answer those kind of questions. Uh and so yeah, I I don't think you get away from guns. I don't think you get away from those kind of things. I actually do think, though, he he's not wrong. In this whole gun debate that's played out over the last 10 days or so, it I understand the passion behind it, but I wish that the only person who came closest to being the most honest about it was actually Governor McKee, who was kind of like I couldn't see myself supporting a legislation that would uh, you know, where we take away guns, but it doesn't matter because it's not gonna pass. It's not gonna be with that was with Matt Allen.

Bill Bartholomew 27:19

That I heard that interview live. I was like, thank you. Thank you for actually being clearly honest in that regard.

Dan McGowan 27:24

And that's what like when when I get people that reach out to me and say, how come you're not covering this? And in this case, in guns is tough because on both sides, you get people that are passionately pro-Second Amendment who think that you know not covering something means you're covering it up. And then you get passionate, you know, take everybody's guns away no matter what, who are saying you're you know, you're you're ignoring this really important topic. And my response always very clearly is just what Governor McKee said, it's not going to pass. You know why last year's gun bills got a lot of attention? Because it was gonna pass. Some version of taking, you know, of uh of a stance on assault weapons was clearly going to pass. Dominic Rogerio, uh, God rest his soul, made it clear that that was going to happen. This one, it's not getting a ton of mainstream coverage. It's gotten some attention, but I kind of agree that like these guys don't necessarily have to answer the question other than you know, broad stance. Could you support a uh you know, piece of legislation that bans possession of uh, you know, of assault style weapons or something like that? I think that's reasonable. Um, but you know, these hypothetical bills, I mean, there are hundreds and hundreds of bills every year introduced. Some of them are the wackiest things you've ever read again on both sides of the of any issue.

Bill Bartholomew 28:36

Are we gonna start asking candidates, you know, what's your take on psychedelic mushrooms, down the Trump's decryption, whatever. Come on. At some point we have to be honest about what's most important to the Unitarian.

Speaker 1 28:46

Right.

Bill Bartholomew 28:46

But I think, like you said, broadly speaking, that's gonna be a big pivot point to his favor, or perhaps not, I don't know. I actually don't really know it the entirety of his his I mean, if you wanted to put put the litmus test out there and someone were to put a rubric. What I think people did learn the lesson of though in 2024 is you know, if you showed up and you said, I can't stand Kamala Harris, but I mean I'm I'm totally opposed to Trump. I'm worried about fascism, so I'm gonna write something in like I'm gonna vote for prison abolition for president.

Dan McGowan 29:17

Right.

unknown 29:17

Right.

Bill Bartholomew 29:18

And and people voted for prison abolition for president, pathetically, and that resulted in Donald Trump in part, maybe not ill literally, but in part, at least I think there's gonna be more scrutiny by the voter this year about who they cast or vote for and the lesser of two evils, if that is the case, people may go back to that notion.

Dan McGowan 29:37

Yeah, I don't think it's unreasonable whatsoever to say who did you vote for in the 2024 presidential election. Yeah, I think that is entirely fair, and it's you know, the people who don't like that question are largely gonna be people who don't want to admit that they voted for Donald Trump. Uh, I think there are probably some people who would say they don't want to admit that they voted for for Kamala Harris, but yeah, that's a relevant and reasonable question. I don't think you can wiggle out of that doesn't matter. Um, it may not be the most important topic of all, and you could maybe make that argument, but at the end of the day, my follow-up is so who did you vote for?

Bill Bartholomew 30:11

Yeah. To be determined as this governor's race moves along, just quickly hear your take on the the unless you have anything else you want to add on the governor's race that we No, I mean again, I think it I'm hopeful uh to just piggyback on sort of your thoughts.

Dan McGowan 30:26

I'm hopeful it does start to become a slightly more substantive race. Uh I fear it won't be, at least on the primary side, I fear it will be, you know, entirely uh opioids versus competence. And I think both sides believe that that's the winning strategy, and so that's what they're going to do, which is not a good doesn't do any service to voters.

Bill Bartholomew 30:44

Yeah, and it it's just one of those questions where you start to ask once again the political process, the political machine, if that's the best strategy for them to deploy as compared with what the people need right now and what they actually want to discuss. Right. Uh, you just see that disconnect playing out, and and it'd be it's almost like a nuclear disarmament pact. We almost should have that. Can we just have Helena Folkes and Dan McKee in the middle of the statehouse? We'll get some neutral party. I'll put a turtle in the middle of the thing or something, I'll pull it out of Wardens Pond in South Kingstown. Just everybody, no more opioids, no more competence. McKee's a smart guy, he's an accomplished guy, he's a leader, he's a proven leader. Helena Folk is a smart woman, she's an accomplished woman, she's a proven leader. Can we just have a governor's race? Right.

Dan McGowan 31:25

Let's just debate the the issues and and or you know what? Here's something fun. Come up with different critiques of one another. There are other things to critique.

Bill Bartholomew 31:34

It was more than just opioids. Rocks and the Zen Axe was flowing as well. Right. Unfortunately, that is where it would go. It's so stupid to hear this notion that there's not horse trading or something. Come on, this whole thing is horse trading, right? I mean, that's it's how it works, and that's it's it's just how it is. And if you look at the history of really courtship appointments writ large, but uh definitely Supreme Court on a statewide basis, this is a political gig. It is not simply all right, I'm gonna stand and look out, you know, out of the Statehouse and like ponder of all the legal minds I've ever encountered or whatever, and who might be the best, who should I call upon? I'll send them a the I'll have a scroll delivered to them by hand requesting their presence. This is horse trading. Come on.

Dan McGowan 32:18

Yeah, there's no I mean, there's no t SAT test for the best possible judge, right? Like they've all passed the bar, and that's pretty much where they they can be. So yeah, of course there's there's trading or implied trading, or maybe if I do this, you'll do this. I don't think I I I do actually, you know, truly believe that Joe Shakarie, who of course the context of this is is will he apply to a to the Supreme Court. Yes, I should um you know, I don't think that there's ever a scenario where he l sits across having lunch with Dan McKee and says the Democratic Party is going to endorse you if you make me a judge. It that's not how it works. That being said, if you're Dan McKee, you have to have in the back of your head, you know, I there are a couple of things that I want if I'm gonna give away a coveted judgeship. Sure, you're a good guy, Speaker Shikarchy. You're you're qualified based on what you know what the qualifications suggest. But I I'm certainly not going to uh if you're gonna turn around and and allow the Democratic Party to endorse my opponent as I'm the incumbent governor, or if you're gonna really screw up my budget in a gut in a gubernatorial election year, uh, you know, I I don't think that I'd be willing to support, you know, if I'm Governor McKay, I don't think I'd be willing to support you. So there has to be some trading or working out there. Um and and Speaker Shikarchi similarly is not gonna ever say, you know, oh, I'll do this for this. But absolutely, I mean, again, I I've made this joke before, Peter Nerona would not get a judgeship, no matter how much we all think he might be qualified. So the MK doesn't like it.

Bill Bartholomew 34:02

Right. Bingo. And it's it's a joke, but it's also it's actually true. And it's a perfect example. Like, let's say Nerona didn't want to retire or whatever he's gonna do next, I don't know if retirees or whatever, we'll get out of public office. But he did, let's say he wanted to become a judge. He it's he's not gonna become a judge. It's just that simple. That's a personal issue, that's a political issue, it's not a competency issue, and he would probably be an awesome Supreme Court judge. I think.

Dan McGowan 34:26

I don't know, maybe he maybe he wouldn't like it so he wouldn't, but well, right, but but just flat out, it wouldn't happen. Yeah. And that is how it works, right? Every judgeship is political to some degree. Again, it's not a test. And so it's always somebody who you know. Can you get an approval? You know, can it get through the Senate? Those kind of things. Everyone's got a motive. Uh it doesn't matter how honorable or dishonorable you are, there's always a reason it happens, and it's it goes beyond just whether or not they'd be a great choice. Sometimes it's, you know, you can think back to Gina Romondo when when she did this, she wanted to put a person of color on the bench. She put Melissa Long there. Uh Aaron Lynch Prada, it was very public, was uh this the senator at the time was very helpful to Gina Romondo in Warwick as she was running for re-election. Walked around, knocked doors with Gina Ramondo. Well, guess what? Yes, they they ended up you know uh making her a judge. That is sort of how this works. By the way, both of those two, uh Judge Long and Judge Lynch Prada are having a great experience on the bench and seem, from all accounts, to be, you know, terrific judges. Joe Shakarchi may very well be a terrific judge. But yeah, don't pretend that there aren't politics in play. There, you know, there are plenty of people, even in the General Assembly, who might be qualified who wouldn't even wouldn't even get a a shot at this, uh, in part because the speaker is the one that's you know holding a lot of the cards.

Bill Bartholomew 35:50

That's exact that's exactly right. Yeah, and you're right. Judge Long is an amazing woman, amazing justice. And like, but you're right, there are always gonna be people who are gonna say, well, you know, that's D D E D E I. There's someone's gonna come in. Of course, oh my god, you know. So there's always something to it where somebody's gonna be aggrieved or think there's somebody's not quite qualified, and they got in there. It's just unb that's the environment we operate in.

Dan McGowan 36:12

No, that being said, the the thing about this is, and I've had this conversation privately with Speaker Shikar Chi, and I and and I think it is true, and I've I've certainly written it and said it publicly in many ways, it is an entirely reasonable argument from uh Michael Yolmaski at Raj Williams that that this shouldn't happen. It looks bad, and the longer it waits, if you start to come into a potential of late May where the governor's making a decision and it's up against his budget, it's a month out from an endorsement from the Democratic Party. The closer you get to those things, I think it the worse it looks, whether or not there's any provable deal cut in any sort of way.

Speaker 1 36:53

Yeah. Right?

Dan McGowan 36:54

And and anytime a sitting speaker of the House, the most powerful person, you know, you I've been thinking a lot about this. You've probably seen recently in the news, and I don't mean to criticize her, but uh Mayor Rivera in Central Falls wrote a um like a letter to the editor in the journal praising Joe Shikarchi about how qualified he he is.

Speaker 1 37:11

That's right.

Dan McGowan 37:11

Yep. That's lovely. But guess what? Maria Rivera needs Speaker Shikarchy to move the schools back to her control, right? That's right. It is it is inappropriate in some ways, not for endorsements like that to happen, but just be honest that the speaker holds a lot of cards. Everyone who says, many people, not everyone, many people who are praising the speaker about how wonderful a judge should be. Guess what? There are lobbyists who need something passed. There are there are politicians who need something for their community, all those kind of things. And we have to be, we have to acknowledge that. And and I think Speaker Scratchy should be prepared for some level of criticism of that. He can't ignore those kind of things. That being said, none of it matters at the end of the day. If the governor believes if if as long as the you know, Speaker Scratchy does in fact apply, and if if the Judicial Nominating Commission puts him forward, I gotta assume they would. Um, you know, my opinion, Mike Elnowski's opinion, your opinion, nobody's opinion's gonna matter. It's gonna be the judge or the governor's gonna have to make a uh a call, and then he'll Speaker Scarchy would undoubtedly be approved in both the House and the Senate.

Bill Bartholomew 38:18

Exactly. And it is what it is, and for people who want to criticize that process, well, it's better for people who want to criticize that process, their their right to do so. But also, what's the alternative right now? How you should we elect the judges? I don't want that exactly. God forbid, my goodness. We have an elected sheriff next. Dan McGowan, the Boston Globe, he's a columnist, he is the author of Roadmap. You get that every single weekday morning in your inbox.

Dan McGowan 38:47

Send an email to rinews at Globe.com. Thanks, Bill.

Bill Bartholomew 38:51

Yeah, I had to turn it on because every time I announced the wrong email address when I do this.

Dan McGowan 38:54

So thank God for the Boston Globe. Oh, thank you very much. That's very kind. Well, thank for you, thank, thank uh God for you. It's been it's always fun to do this. We do it every election cycle, and so uh it's always good to see you and always good to be with you.

Speaker 1 39:06

Do it soon. Thanks.