The Future of the Republican Party: Insights from Gary Sasse

In this episode, Gary Sasse—a respected Rhode Island policy expert and moderate Republican—shares his nuanced perspective on the evolving landscape of the Republican Party post-Trump. We explore the internal factions shaping its future, the strategic principles guiding reform, and the challenges of messaging in today’s media environment.

Key Topics:

• The three factions of the Republican Party: MAGA populism, traditional conservatives, and the alternative right
• How these factions interact and influence party dynamics
• The importance of a pragmatic, issue-based approach grounded in core principles
• Strategies for rebuilding the party's relevance amid media and demographic hurdles
• The potential for moderate Republican voices to shape the future in Rhode Island and beyond
• The impact of social media, media bias, and internal party divisions on message dissemination
• Practical policy ideas, including economic development, affordable housing, and AI innovation
• The significance of civil discourse, fact-based debate, and national unity as a foundation for renewal

Timestamps:
00:00 - Introducing Gary Sasse: Rhode Island’s moderate Republican voice

02:00 - Gary’s background: nonprofit, policy work, and political roles

03:00 - Breakdown of Republican factions: MAGA, traditional, and alt right

04:00 - Why classifying factions helps understand internal party struggles

05:00 - The importance of identity: MAGA voters and their long-term loyalty

06:00 - Democratic Party shift left and its implications for the center

07:00 - Six core principles guiding a pragmatic Republican approach

08:00 - Principles include rejecting extremism, fiscal responsibility, and peace through strength

09:00 - Policy focus areas: AI, economic strategy, and housing solutions

10:00 - Challenges and opportunities in Rhode Island’s political environment

11:00 - Messaging hurdles: media landscape and demographic shifts

12:00 - The Trump factor: its hold on a third of the party

13:00 - Strategies for growth: grassroots organizing and modern communication

14:00 - The importance of fact-based debate and civil discourse

15:00 - Building a sustainable, issue-focused Republican future in Rhode Island and nationally

16:00 - How to position for 2028 and avoid being sidelined by intra-party conflicts

17:00 - Final reflections: optimism for pragmatic solutions and party renewal

Resources & Links:

• Gary Sasse's profile and work
• The Hill Opinion Piece on Future of GOP

Connect with Gary Sasse:

• LinkedIn
  • Twitter

Transcript

Bill Bartholomew 0:00

Gary Sass joins Bartholomew Telling. How would you kind of categorize yourself and your work over the years?

SPEAKER_01 0:06

I would define myself as a traditional Republican, you know, somebody that uh wants to work uh, you know, with uh all political factions to try to solve problems, but coming at it from a center-right perspective.

Bill Bartholomew 0:23

Your most recent work I know uh has included the Hassenfeld Institute. What just in summary, like just I guess define your career? What have what have you done over over the span of time here?

SPEAKER_01 0:34

I've been in uh in in the nonprofit world. I worked at Rik Tech for several decades, uh, which is a public policy think tank. Um I worked uh in political campaigns as one of the chairs of the Rubio campaign in 16. I was a Kasich delegate to the uh 16 convention. Uh I served uh at high levels in the Kachery administration uh as director of administration and director of revenue. But prior to that, I took leave of his absence and I was Bruce Henlin's fiscal advisor in 92 when we were gone through the banking crisis and chaired Governor Almond's transition team when he was elected governor. So I I would define myself as you know certainly having an academic bent, but having uh uh an applied academic uh view where you know thinking that facts are important, you know, issues are important, uh recognize that people come at these questions from different points of view, but you really want to get agreement on the facts, and then you can differ on specific policy and ideology. So I said I've been you know very career, both involved in politics in the arena and and also uh working at universities, working at things. I taught at the Kennedy School at Harvard for a while. Um as you mentioned, I ran the uh Institute for Public Leadership for a decade uh at Bryant University, which was supported by the generacity of the Hassafell Family Foundation. So that's in a nutshell kind of gives you a bet my background.

Bill Bartholomew 2:10

In a recent Hill opinion piece, you write what lies ahead for the Republican Party after Trump. You break it down into three competing categories or factions, if you will. And these are pretty well known to anybody who's an observer of the Republican Party, and you see these factions starting to compete against each other. One, MAGA populism to the sort of traditional Republican, how you identified yourself here coming on today, and then the alternative right, the Christian nationalist, the Heritage Foundation. I think it's so interesting that you break down these factions into three categories and separate the alt-right from MAGA populism. And what what led you to this sort of trifecta of factions as a way of thinking about the Republican Party right now?

SPEAKER_01 2:59

Well, several things. First of all, you needed an organizational theory to do any analysis. So you had to make decisions, and some were reflecting experience and some were arbitrary. Uh and then look at political results. And if you measure winners and losers, they fall into these track three categories. Now, if the categories are not perfect, they're pretty clear between uh MAGA Republicans, and I want to talk about that in a minute, who they really are, and uh what I would call legacy of traditional Republicans. And we have a couple of efforts uh that you know a little bit under radar right now, but are gaining some steam and in looking forward. And I think one of the things when you use this kind of a trichotomy as a breakdown is not to look at where things are now. It's following Wayne Bresky's uh advice, skate to where you think the puck is gonna be. So in putting this together, I'm skating where I think the puck is gonna be in 2028, because on January 20th, 2029, we're gonna have a new president, a new political landscape. And so the game I'm playing is to figure out how you win with moderate, conservative, center-right, traditional public Republican uh views. And there are a couple of things that give me grounds for optimism. Two, uh, there were some studies done uh by a group called More Common, which is a critical a competent group that's tied to the uh Ash Center at Harvard University. And what they found was that 40% of Trump's voters uh say MAGA is uh important in determining their political identity. That means 60% of Trump voters uh are not that tied to MAGA. And while we know what MAGA has addressed, it's addressed uh uh populism, it's it's built on institutional distrust, cultural grievances, et cetera, it doesn't have a governing philosophy. So if 40% of the people in the 60% of the people in the movement don't tie their identity long term to MAGA, and MAGA hasn't defined a governing philosophy, it becomes very situational as to what the leader says and following the leader. That's the first rouse reason that gives me some some optimism. Uh the second is what's happening across the aisle in the Democratic Party. Uh the Democratic Party since 2016 has been moving further left. Uh I think Bernie Sanders was denied the nomination. I think if you looked at it objectively, he probably earned it. Uh but what happened that was more important was the people that followed Sanders stayed within the party. There were more left than the old party, but they stayed within the party. And the second thing that's happening, the so-called, and I I don't be, I gotta be careful when I use titles, but the so-called democratic socialists, the Madamis of the world, several people who won primaries last night uh for federal office, uh, are within the party. So the base of the party may be moving further to the left. And that opens, so those two things open an opportunity. You know, the MAGA people not 60% of MAGA people not having identifying their future with MAGA, and the Democrat Party moving further and further to the left opens up something in the middle. And I think if the Republican Party uh uses its head and acts like a big tent, is welcoming, compromises, deals with real issues, there's a big hole that you can march through. Now it's going to take organization, it's going to take money, it's going to take uh a reversion to principles. And there are really six principles. I don't want to get too academic, but I'm one of the co-chairs of the group called our Republican Legacy, which is working on a national level, and we're organized now in 30 states, and we have six principles. And if these six principles guide what we're doing in Rhode Island and elsewhere, we we can be in the fight. A lot of work, we're not in the fight yet, but a but a lot of you know work needs to be done. And the six principles are reject extremism. And that goes back to Abraham Lincoln, of promoting national unity, not extremism. Uh the core principles in the Constitution, due process, check and balance, respect those. Uh reserve reversing, and this gets into policy areas, you know, where we have a lot of differences, but uh reversing fiscal irresponsibility, the higher level of debt, irresponsible spending, uh the whole, I think a lot of the affordability agenda ties back to we can't afford the amount of government that we have, but there's a fiscal responsibility issue, uh promoting equal opportunity as opposed to guaranteeing outcomes. That's always been a Republican point of view of equal opportunity, not guaranteed to outcomes. Going back to Reagan, peace through strength. And certainly what's happening uh I when I came on this podcast, I decided we will be political, but what's happening in Iran right now is not peace through strength by anybody's my, at least my eyes, my lying eyes, you know, tell me that's not not peace through strength. So peace through strength. And then uh I would say 21st century uh building a competitive uh climate for development of jobs and and in business used to be called free enterprise. I'm not quite sure how you define it now, but it but but you know, strengthening uh the business climate so people will invest and the private sector will grow. Those are six principles. If we then can take issues and have our issues consistent with those principles of governing, there's a hole for us. But it's a lot of work, as I said, you know, in raising money and getting out the message. Um and there are a couple of things that are happening right now. Uh I mentioned our Republican legacy that I work with. We also organized a group in the state called the Rhode Island Republican Problem Solvers Caucus. And we're meeting soon, and and then we've developed uh two, we're gonna develop more issue papers. One is on what will happen to the state if it doesn't have an economic policy that addresses AI. And we we can talk about all the other economic development theories you want. The reality is we're we're we're we're we're coming up against a crunch, and there are some good things that we've done in the state. I think what Jim Langman's done at, you know, Rick deserves commendation. I think some of the things the McKee administration has done on trying to identify uh problematic issues, you know, dealing with AI is fine. But no one has, and they talk about innovation. But beyond talking about innovation, we do not have a strategy. And I'm talking about an economic strategy. I don't really care about the rest of it. It's an economic strategy because that's where the you know the rubber reached the road as far as well-being of people in this state and elsewhere. Uh and so we're gonna have some definite suggestions on what uh this innovative economic strategy should look like in dealing with AI based on the Republican principles that I mentioned. Uh same thing with uh with housing. Um I think you know, Mayor Smiley may have pointed this out. You only solve the Heisen crisis by building housing. And if you look at uh you know the arc from Blackstone Valley down into Providence, we had a lot of people living in in those three decades in those families. And that didn't get into these intermural fights of what the quality of life should be in West Greenwich or X or uh but there there are practical things that we can do that will uh get more private investment, more home building, but we have to you know realize what our conservative values are in doing that and and recognize uh that when you speak about affordable housing, it's not just affordable housing everywhere, because everywhere is not the same. And so those are the kinds of, and I'm giving you two examples, uh Bill. Those are those are the kinds of uh issues that we need to speak about, and we need to figure out a way to get the message out. That's why I was particularly happy to do this podcast, but get the message out of the kinds of uh issues that we want to develop, the the concern I I they're moderate and they're conservative, but their solutions are different than what's being discussed at the State House right now. And I think it's a net public plus to have those two points of view, but they have to be responsible points of view. And they and they and they have to be predicated on not having the civil war over facts. We we may not agree on the interpretation of facts, that's perfectly good, but we need to get to the point by saying, you know, one is a one and a two is a two. And you know, it's not four. And uh and so that's what we're doing, and I think uh that's what our you know hope is to build a uh a problem-solving, uh pragmatic, you know, set of alternatives to deal with the problems. Because we ain't doing a heck of a great job dealing with the problems. We can spend a lot of money, you know, we can have people go meet with various interest groups and cut ribbons, but at the end of the day, it doesn't change. And I think the admonition uh that the former governor of Massachusetts, Charlie Baker, said, he said if you do three things, you're gonna win. You've got to make sure kids are going to good schools, uh, and that there's upward mobility, that they can do better than their parents did. You've got to make sure you create an environment where the spouses, mother and father, will have a good job, good paying, you know, job, and you have to have an environment where people feel safe. If somehow you could do those three things in reference to the real problems that we face right now, you're gonna win. And that's not what's happening here right now. And that's why I think uh I may be polyandering, but I think that's what we're trying to do.

Bill Bartholomew 12:40

Yeah. Well, I think the moment right now in Rhode Island is just it's a bizarre one because it does feel like if there ever were an opportunity for a Republican to and maybe this is what we'll see from Aaron Gukin, you know, or maybe some in in an indirect way can block. It just feels right now that type of messaging is absent. You know, you have a lot of people who the vocal component of the party oftentimes as much in the MAGA camp as possible. And so that be it's it it how much of that absolute fact that just on a media basis you have leading Republicans right now or leading Republican voices that lean so heavily into the MAGA camp, how difficult does that make it for someone trying to organize the way you are to get even get a message out without being dismissed as, you know, whatever, m rhino or whatever it is that we've seen this play out now on the senatorial level. We've seen it play out on the local level. There are exceptions, for sure, recent ones, but by and large, this is the challenge right now for the Republican Party. And it's it the cultural and economic issues aside, it's hey, Trump is the it seems to be a king-making type of moment.

SPEAKER_01 13:57

He's a king-making type, it is a king-making, and and because 35% of the party, which is a big block, is with Trump, lock, stock, and barrel. And it's a tremendous challenge. I don't I don't minimize the challenge. And we face some very difficult odds. We have to get our message out. And one of the issues that I have, and I don't want to sound like I'm complaining, is how do we deal with the media? You know, the media is very just changed. Uh when there was a statewide newspaper of record, uh, you could figure out who the reporters were. And everybody read the newspaper or dealt with the three television stations and the two radio stations that did uh you know public affairs, different environment. Uh different different environment. So the things that I've been discussing with you of what our positions are on these issues, you know, we face some steep hurdles in getting the message out of what we're thinking about, why we're thinking about it. Uh and and we have some people working with us who are knowledgeable about social media communications processes today, but that's a that's a steep hurdle. The the second hurdle is demographic. Uh the people in the in the Republican Party that control the party uh magger, you know, you know, people, and they're in that 35%. So the second challenge is how do we grow the party? How do we get people like us involved in in positions? And the only thing you could do is by by working the system. And so we have and reorganizing as a 501c4, and without sounding too nerdy, that means we can educate people, uh, we can take stands on on issues, we can criticize candidates, but we can't support candidates overtly, we can't, you know, support running for election. And we thought that was important because we thought the first step that we had to take was to focus on state and local issues. And one of the things we have to do, which is uh is to have people recognize that we're trying to solve state and local problems. You know, Trump is gonna be history. Uh and we have to, in doing that, look beyond 2026. You know, my field of vision is what are we gonna be like in 2028? Are we gonna be competitive? Are we gonna be able to identify people who want to run as traditional Republicans who think they got a shot to do something to be successful in a political environment? So I see that as the as the window. You know, 26, we have to get going. And the kinds of things that you and I have been discussing are the start. But the challenges, like I mentioned, I don't want to repeat myself, uh, you know, are very very can be very difficult to overcome. We have good people working on it. If you look at the list of people who are founding people, you'll see they're experienced. Uh we've also recruited a few more since you've seen that list who are new. Um, and it's it's building, it's building from the ground up. It's hard.

Bill Bartholomew 17:04

Gary Sass, a Rhode Island Republican voice from a perspective you don't hear a lot, like we just described, it l at least in terms of broadcast media, social media, uh, but no doubt is there and uh a lot of ideas, including this hill piece. Thanks so much for your time today, Gary. I appreciate your time. Thank you.