How Do The Gov Candidates Stack Up on Transit? Grow Smart RI's Scott Wolf

Rhode Island Transit, Smart Growth, and the Real Cost of Underfunding RIPTA

Bill Bartholomew talks with Scott Wolf, executive director of Grow Smart Rhode Island, about why transit is much more than a social service and how better funding could support housing, economic development, tourism, and affordability across the state. They also dig into the governor’s race, the gap between rhetoric and real transit investment, and what Rhode Island can learn from places like Chattanooga, Pittsburgh, Minneapolis, and Ithaca.

Key topics

• In this episode, Bill Bartholomew opens with the transit debate sparked by independent gubernatorial candidate Ken Block’s affordability plan and ties it to broader questions about smart growth and community development.
• Scott Wolf argues that one of the biggest misunderstandings in Rhode Island leadership is treating transit as only a social service instead of a driver of economic activity, housing access, and revitalization.
• The conversation centers on Rhode Island’s congestion, dense development patterns, and the way transit can help downtowns, main streets, and “third spaces” become more vibrant.
• Scott says stronger transit is essential for retaining young talent, noting that younger generations are more pro-transit and that ignoring them is a strategic mistake.
• The Hasbro relocation comes up as an example of why transit access matters to major employers, with Scott stressing that convenience to transit should be a warning signal for policymakers.
• Bill and Scott compare candidate positions, including Helena Folts’ call for stable RIPTA funding and Ken Block’s proposal for a year of free fares, while debating whether transit needs more total budget or better reallocation.
• Scott says Rhode Island needs both more investment and better efficiencies, including a long-overdue efficiency audit of RIDOT, which he argues has not faced the same scrutiny as RIPTA.
• The discussion highlights RIPTA’s service cuts, underfunding, and the negative cycle created when reduced frequency leads to lower ridership and even less support.
• Scott points to the affordability impact of transit, citing research that suggests many Rhode Island households with three or more cars could save around $10,000 a year by giving up one vehicle if service improved.
• Multimodal transit, including biking and pedestrian infrastructure, is presented as part of the same ecosystem and as a necessity for tourism, economic development, and everyday livability.
• The role of municipalities is explored, especially how much influence cities and towns really have over routes, funding, and transportation priorities.
• Scott praises mayors like Bob DeSilva of East Providence and contrasts them with municipalities that resist transit-oriented development, noting that local leadership can speed up or stall progress.
• The conversation closes with Scott’s broader critique of Rhode Island’s low expectations and short-term policy mindset, and his argument for thinking bigger about transit as a foundation for housing, mobility, and long-term prosperity.

Timestamps

00:00 - Why transit entered the governor’s race
 00:43 - Scott Wolf on smart growth and regional credibility
 01:34 - The biggest leadership gap in understanding transit
 03:17 - Transit as an engine for housing and economic vitality
 04:44 - Why young people and employers care about transit
 05:07 - The Hasbro example and transit as a business factor
 06:37 - Stable funding for RIPTA versus free fares
 07:05 - Why Rhode Island needs both new money and efficiencies
 08:33 - RIDOT scrutiny, RIPTA cuts, and the service death spiral
 09:28 - The affordability case for reducing car ownership
 10:29 - Bikes, pedestrians, and the larger multimodal picture
 11:23 - Tourism benefits from a more user-friendly state
 11:48 - How much power municipalities really have
 13:34 - Transit, housing, and the politics of local resistance
 14:31 - The biggest barrier: low expectations and short-term thinking
 16:39 - Transit as the key to housing and economic mobility
 17:05 - Learning from Chattanooga, Pittsburgh, Minneapolis, and Ithaca
 18:39 - Why Rhode Island should study what works elsewhere
 20:03 - Restoring RIPTA service cuts for about $5 million
 21:26 - The transit master plan and bold next steps

Transcript

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Bill Bartholomew 0:00

Welcome to Bartholomew Town. It's Bill Bartholomew. And as we approach the general election, a press release came out about a week ago from independent gubernatorial candidate Ken Block identifying five tenants of his proposals that would address the affordability crisis. One of them was to waive ripped affairs for a year, basically make bus public transit free in the state. That kind of renewed a little bit of a dialogue on the radio around what transit actually is and what it represents as we take a look at smart growth and building out strong communities. So there's literally nobody more qualified to discuss this here or anywhere than Scott Wolf, the executive director of Grow Smart Rhode Island. Scott, thanks so much for your time.

SPEAKER_00 0:42

Well, thank you, Bill, for that uh fulsome introduction. I hope I live up to those expectations. Here we go, right? You're a hell of a consciousness raiser, too, my friend, uh doing a lot of uh yeoman's work to bring critical issues in-depth to our region. So congrats on that.

Bill Bartholomew 1:03

I appreciate it. Um you said something off-air that I thought was really interesting, which is that a lot of leaders don't understand the transit issue. I totally agree. So when Ken Bloch raises this as part of his affordability plan, or really Helena Bonano Folks, the Democratic nominee, has been taking photos of herself on or having someone take photos of her on Ripto buses and really got the endorsement of the Providence Streets Coalition. So transit becomes a part of the conversation on very specific levels, but it does feel like there's a gap, not necessarily with these candidates, but in general with the understanding of the relationship that transit plays in our general growth as a community. So what do you think the biggest gap is in terms of people's understanding in leadership and otherwise?

SPEAKER_00 1:50

I think at least one of the big gaps is the notion that transit is exclusively a social service and not a catalyst for economic and community development and for um revitalizing our communities and uh expanding um housing opportunities. There's not an appreciation of how much positive benefit a stronger, better funded, more integrated transit system can have for our state, not just for the people who use it, but for everybody.

Bill Bartholomew 2:28

Right. And also in terms of just as we start to look at specifically in Rhode Island, when you think about the population density, the congested highways, certainly there are infrastructure problems. The Washington Bridge is what it is, and there are many others like it. But if we're being honest about it, we have a congested community and a lot of places that have beautiful main streets, a lot of beautiful downtowns, and not necessarily those third spaces, those magnets to attract people. But to build that up, one element that's critical to building what a lot of people want in downtown Providence. Oddly, some people who want to see downtown Providence revived want to push public transit away. And at the same time, public transit actually can be the core generator of a lot of these things.

SPEAKER_00 3:16

Well, absolutely it can be. And it's and there's ample evidence in other places, uh and in some places in Rhode Island where we've had relatively frequent service where it can generate additional housing and economic uh uh activity and vitality. And with any significant public policy challenge, we can't just look at what's what's currently happening, but what do we want to see happen in Rhode Island? And I think I at least want to see us not have the population decline that's forecast for our state. I want uh to see more Rhode Islanders of modest means be able to climb the economic ladder. I want to see more Rhode Islanders be able to walk and bike uh without fear of uh of their safety uh and and and of the conditions of their sidewalks and their roads. Uh if we want to fulfill that kind of a vision, an improved transit system is a key part of making that maybe gauzy vision a reality. So, and if we want to retain and attract the young talent that our corporate leaders say is so important to their future well-being and the state's future well-being, we've got to understand that a lot of those younger people are much more pro-transit than maybe people of my generation. And they're the future of our state. And if we're not catering to them, uh then we're it's a force, it's an unforced era, it's a missed opportunity. Uh and one example of that unforced era is is the Hasbro situation. Um, I'm not saying Hasbro would have stayed if we had a better transit system, but we might have had more of a fighting chance of keeping them if we did. And their CEO basically said that. He said, and considering their location future, convenience to transit was a major factor. Now that shouldn't fall on deaf ears. That should be a kind of a siren call for our leaders about the the need to do this. And yeah, there's some cost, but there's a bigger cost to not doing it, in my opinion. Aaron Ross Powell Right.

Bill Bartholomew 5:37

That's the biggest question mark, I suppose, about this this governor's race or just general policy when it comes to transit and looking at transit from an economic standpoint. At the recent uh GrowSmart held a forum. What was that, in June that you held it? And what we call our power place summit, right? Trevor Burrus, Jr. Yes, exactly, the power play summit. And and there's been pretty consistent it's almost tied into general displeasure with the Rhode Island Department of Transportation or attitudes that the the DOT is inept or something like that, where the and and DOT obviously and RIPTA are very different, but there are overlaps there in terms of personnel and so on and so forth. We don't have to go into the details right now. But uh generally the candidates have said, look, there should be more transparency with RIPTA. There should be more we we gotta do more. That's that's been there. But there have been key differences in terms of funding. And I think at least from the standpoint of stable funding, Helena Folk seems to be saying, look, we want to we want a $15 million stable funding. It's not clear whether that would go towards new routes or if that's plugging existing gaps. Whereas Ken Bloch says make ripped affairs free for a year, but all of the money to fund transit already exists in the the state budget and can be found elsewhere. So in order to grow our transit, do we need to grow our budget for transit?

SPEAKER_00 7:04

I think we do, but I think we also can find some efficiencies in the in the Ride Ot budget that can help to augment RIPTA's budget. So I think it's uh it's an all-in kind of strategy. Uh I don't think it's a one, I don't think there's one um one solution. I think we need multiple solutions, and I think they're out there for us. And uh uh when it comes to Ride Ot and and RIPTA um our two big transportation agencies in the state, Ride Ot is kind of in terms of public scrutiny, uh at least formal public scrutiny, until the Washington Bridge at least, has had a pretty much of a, pardon the expression, a free ride. And RIPTA, on the other hand, has been studied to death uh with one mandated efficiency study after another. There have been, I think, eight in the last 20, 25 years of RIPTA. I don't think there's been any formal, legislatively mandated uh uh efficiency study of RIDOT. I could be wrong, but in any event, there's an imbalance. There's clearly an imbalance where RIPTA's been studied to death, and Ride Ot has been pretty much there's been pretty much a hands-off approach for RIDOT. And I think that needs to change. I'm not saying RIDAT doesn't do a lot of important and good things, and I think their acting director is striking a much better tone than than Peter Alviti. So I I hope we're on a better course there. But we fully support the legislation and helped actually draft the legislation that was passed recently to have a an efficiency audit of Ryde. Uh and that's that's supposed to happen, I think, by the spring of this year. So uh that will give us some clue as to whether there are some savings that perhaps can be part of the rebooting of RIPTA. Because right now, RIPTA's in a close to being in a death spiral uh because of the cuts to service that have not been restored, and because of the general underfunding beyond those specific cuts to service. And if you have more frequency of service and more and longer hours of service, you're going to attract more riders. If you have less of that, you're going to reduce the ridership. And it can become a negative, a negative cycle if you keep reducing the service. It's not it's not a solution, it's a it's exacerbating the problem. And we think there's we think there's a lot of Rhode Islanders who currently don't ride Ripta who might find it a useful and and more affordable alternative to always using their cars. Uh there are about 83,000 Rhode Island households, based on some research we did recently. 83,000 Rhode Island households have three or more cars.

unknown 9:50

Come on.

SPEAKER_00 9:51

If they could go from three cars or four cars to one less, because there's better service uh and there's more people living in in location-efficient places, they could each be saving ten thousand dollars a year. So when we talk about affordability, transit can play a major role in making Rhode Islanders' lives more affordable, as well as increasing jobs and housing. So it's it's really a um it's really a service that can that um it can be a gift that keeps giving if we treat it correctly.

Bill Bartholomew 10:28

Yes. I also think there's an attitude, I don't know what the current stances from ex uh acting director, interim director, I should say, Rocchio, a DOT, but there is an attitude on multimodal transit, which is also a a critical part of public transit in general, be it biking, be it pedestrian. It just wasn't necessarily part of what Director Alvede saw as a priorities or priorities of the.

SPEAKER_00 10:57

And bike and pet have been starved in the state for funds as well. And uh and we we need to change that. And uh and it's not all just for altruistic reasons that these things need to happen. It's for it's for enlightened self-interest, as I was saying before on the on the economic development front. And one important part of our economy, Bill, as you know better than just about anybody, is tourism. And the more we have a user-friendly state, and it is somewhat user-friendly already, but it could be a lot more user-friendly, especially when it comes to getting around through transit, if we can have that kind of improvement, where our tourism industry is going to benefit. And that's a key part of our economy. So there's a virtuous cycle to investing in transit that we really need to understand and appreciate better and act on it.

Bill Bartholomew 11:48

How much of this comes down to municipalities and how much of this comes down to the central you know, the the notion of state government and RIPTA? Are there changes that certainly obviously you look at Providence and the bike lanes that that were put in or the bike lane that is being we'll say relocated? Right. And there are there are municipalities that seem to have a a real strong grasp on their own transit needs. And there are some that just seem to be floating in space. But do they really have any power? Do they have any bargaining uh at the table even in designing routes or understanding where funding goes or how things are are dispersed, whether they be grants or ideas?

SPEAKER_00 12:32

Aaron Ross Powell I I think they have potential power. I'm not sure how much they're exercising it. And I think the way our uh our formal uh decision body uh is for transportation decision making is structured, the State Planning Council that I serve on, that that militates against a lot of municipal engagement because there aren't that many municipalities uh on the on the Planning Council. Uh and in other states, these so-called metropolitan planning organizations um have more municipal involvement. So that's that's something structural to look at. But we're a small state. Mayors who speak out uh and who uh like push the levers of power effectively can have a lot of influence. Um yeah, I think municipalities can have a bigger say, and they can either be welcoming of more transit or resistant to it, and that can play a big role in how far we get with whatever extra dollars we commit.

Bill Bartholomew 13:33

Right. I almost liken it to housing. And obviously there's the tie-in between transit-oriented housing where you have some municipalities, Johnston, for example, with the George Waterman Highway, there were gonna there there was a plan to develop uh roughly 280 workforce housing units. The mayor of Johnston uh and the the council orchestrated this eminent domain takeover. Now they're gonna build a police station there, a lot of nonsense behind the scenes on that. Um whereas there are other municipalities that are saying, hey, we East Providence, Bob da Silva, he says, let's go. In fact, he was one of the people who orchestrated the ADU unit, uh the ADU process.

SPEAKER_00 14:11

I'd love to clone Bob da Silva and a few other good mayors, but he's one of the best mayors I think we have in this in this state. And in terms of community development and and recognizing the importance and the value of housing at all levels and and of concentrating development in places where people don't always have to use a car to get what they want. Yeah.

Bill Bartholomew 14:31

Right. Lastly, here, as you look at the state right now, and and you certainly have what is it, September? You have months uh ahead here as the executive director.

SPEAKER_00 14:40

You've already hopefully months months ahead doing something else. Uh exactly.

Bill Bartholomew 14:44

You've already made it clear you're not getting out of the uh of the business on the whole. So but but what what's the biggest barrier right now to uh to getting to a place where Rhode Island truly is a smart community? It's a s it's we're locked into where housing, transit, education, infrastructure on the whole, obviously the climate, the ecological piece, the artistic and and nourishing piece, all all of these things are are are happening in a way that you would most want to see. Your utopia in Rhode Island. What's the biggest barrier right now to to getting there?

SPEAKER_00 15:22

Well, well, it's hard to s well, uh I I guess I guess I'll speak broadly to give you a barrier. I think there are there are several, um, but I think there's also I see some some green shoots coming up here in terms of in terms of overcoming those barriers. But I think attitude is still a significant barrier. I s I think we don't set our expectations high enough in this state, and and therefore we sometimes live up to our reduced expectations. Uh we don't appreciate all the assets that this state has, although I think there's more appreciation than there used to be. Um and because we're so so many of our bright policy people are focused on annual policy and on the annual state budget, there's not enough of us thinking long-term and thinking beyond an election cycle or two. And so it's incumbent upon leaders who are willing to do that and organizations like Grow Smart Rhode Island that are kind of that are really in our de it's in our DNA to do that, to be as forceful and as and to offer as many captivating ideas uh uh as possible. But and I but I think having a stronger transit system is a key to unlocking a lot of the other opportunities that we we need to unlock, like more housing and uh and more economic opportunity and more economic mobility opportunity for people, because uh uh it's such a it's such a basic important part of people's everyday life. Um and and it's and we have the bones, we have the density, as you alluded to, to have a much stronger transit system. We're not gonna be New York or Boston, but there are cities like Chattanooga, Tennessee, and Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and Minneapolis, so places that are either about our size, in some cases a little bigger, in some cases a little smaller, Ithaca, New York, they're models for what a robust transit system can be in different sized communities. And and we can easily, well, not easily, but we can feasibly obtain their level of robustness, and we'll have huge benefits to that. So we gotta, as as URI says, we gotta think big.

Bill Bartholomew 17:45

URI and Aaron Gukin has uh decided to take that as well, apparently for his slogan.

SPEAKER_00 17:50

But we gotta think big, and we don't it doesn't mean we think pie in the sky, but the there's there's a legitimate course to a much stronger, I think, economy and and and trans in in our state and more opportunity and and even more vibrancy to build on, what's a pretty vibrant place, but we can do a lot better. So we have to we have to um we have to kind of push the envelope and and have more confidence in ourselves. I couldn't I could not agree more with that, right? Yeah. And and I think I think we're getting there. I I think we're getting there, but we have a ways to go. And uh um and we can't be we can't be uh resistant to looking at good practices elsewhere as well as good practices in individual places here. So we gotta be open as well as bold, I think.

Bill Bartholomew 18:38

Aaron Powell Yeah. I wonder what the last time that someone from the Department of Transportation had a any kind of seminar. I I mean, obviously they should be on the ground visiting Chattanooga or have already done that, but at minimum have had some kind of virtual seminar uh with Chattanooga officials to try to exchange information. There's also a lot we can deliver to a place like Chattanooga with how we've built our econom our our academic and meds and eds, and there's there's a lot of exchanges that can happen. And um Yeah, I wonder. I'll ask the DOT if uh there's spokesperson's listening. When's the last time you guys met on Chattanooga?

unknown 19:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:13

Or someplace like that.

Bill Bartholomew 19:15

Or someplace like it, right?

SPEAKER_00 19:16

Yeah. There's a number of examples uh that that of places that are really doing it right. And we're doing some things right. And and Ripta, within its its underfunded uh budget, is a good agency. They really are a good agency with a lot of dedicated, talented, uh uh technically very proficient people. So let's not let's let's get them off this incredibly short leash we've had them on and let them do their thing, uh, with oversight, obviously.

Bill Bartholomew 19:45

But yeah, I could I completely agree. Um looking forward to arranging right now with Chris Duran, the CEO of Ripta and uh and and Pat Crowley, who chairs the the board, um, to get onto a Ripta bus with Dan York and ride around and get the experience.

SPEAKER_00 20:04

We'd love to facilitate that if that would if that would facilitate it to our being involved. And uh one thing it I one other thing I want to stress is that if is that the service cuts that that haven't been restored can be restored very easily. We need about five million dollars out of a $15 billion state budget to restore those service cuts. The fact that those haven't been restored when it requires so little is a sobering commentary on how low a priority transit is given in some of our leadership circles.

Bill Bartholomew 20:48

As Arlene Violet always says, budgets are a reflection of priorities. Aaron Ross Powell Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 20:54

And and and this is this transit situation, at least the the floundering of it right now, is a matter, I think, more of will than of wallet.

Bill Bartholomew 21:05

It definitely is. And it's a good thing that we have the type of advocacy and data-driven advocacy that uh that you provide, your organization provides. Scott Wolfe, Executive Director, Grow Smart, Rhode Island, and let's see how this governor's race plays out. Let's see if it gets a even more into the the transit space.

SPEAKER_00 21:25

Maybe we'll I hope it does. We're going to encourage that. And Helena at one point talked about she could see tripling the spending for Ripta. And uh there is a transit master plan that has a really bold vision for the state that I hope she or whoever is elected governor will embrace. Uh and it would double double the service of RIPTA over time. It would add new hubs, uh, it would add a uh light rail uh or a dedicated bus uh uh spine of 18 miles between uh uh within the most populous part of the state. So there's a lot of good concrete uh vetted plans in that document that we hope our next leader leaders will embrace. Likewise. Thanks a lot, Scott. Thank you, Bill. Always a pleasure.